00:00:01.000 Hello and welcome to MilMac Musings, where Allison Miller and Gerard MacLellan reveal the intersection between God and science for living wholeheartedly. Now on to the podcast. Hi, everyone. Welcome again to Milmac Musings. This is Allison. My name is Gerard, and we're here today to delve deeper than from last week's show. We're going to actually have a two-part show. It would go too long otherwise.

00:00:29.000 So we're going to be starting to delve deeper into the characteristics of when people just go deeper into actually they elevate the control mechanisms in your life. And as we were preparing for the show today, we're going through some examples that we're going to share with you as well to kind of show you. You know When you're involved in it, again, as I said before, you really may not understand it.

00:00:58.000 And we start with masks. We all do. If anybody says they don't, then they're fibbing. But anyway, as we've been talking about, some of the things we want to do is work on yourself first. But when you have the mask and you're in a relationship, particularly if you're dating and then going into a deeper relationship and then going into marriage, if that mass stays and you're not portraying anything of a true self, then when you get into the marriage aspect, things can come out that are really shocking.

00:01:30.000 And when you're shocked, you have reactive anger and then you also try to, I think like we've mentioned before with gaslighting, you're kind of bewildered, particularly when they're saying things and you know it's not true of yourself, but you're really doubting it. But some of the things that we wanted to kind of go over would be, we're going to list a few of them. For me, one of the biggest things was digital spying. And again, this is the increased level of control.

00:02:01.000 So with digital spying, that could be easily with email because from my perspective, what happened was my heart was there to help you, but I think we all in general want to help you know your spouse and other people in general to overcome things. And for me, I thought I could handle it by myself. And obviously, that was not the case. And as we mentioned, we each have our own ways of we each have to deal with our own emotions, unprocessed, unprocessed emotions, and emotions in general understand the triggers and where they come from.

00:02:34.000 So I wanted to start with digital spying if that's okay. Yeah, that'd be great. So for me, my heart was there to the person that I'm talking about was in a marriage before and they had different issues. But what happened for me is that the trust wasn't there. And I didn't see it. I just thought it was something that would help her to overcome some of the difficulties that were coming out after we were married.

00:03:04.000 And when I say coming out, again, the mask was coming off. So these things that were underlying, so we've mentioned before the underlying issues, the behavior was there, but the underlying issues, I didn't know at the time what was going on. So I was willing to give up the passwords and things like that. But again, when you step back and we're going through the normal process of relationship, that's not healthy. So in other words, what I did is I gave up my me as we talked about my mind will and emotions to the other person, but I didn't know I was doing that.

00:03:35.000 I just didn't have a clue. So that was one thing. And another thing too was the phone. The phone, you know the texting, and it was always in an accusatory way of what was happening. And it was just such a, how can I say? It was something that was, I don't know if it was low self-esteem on that other person's part or if it was just something that they were not trusting. I don't know, whatever it is.

00:04:04.000 Insecurity. Insecurity, that's a great word for it. Yeah So that's exactly what was happening. And these are very, very real examples. We lived them and I've lived through them. And why we want to go deeper into these things is to let you know that they're there. They're very real. They can spiral out of control. You can give up your me, which is something we can't do. To be in a healthy relationship, both people have to have respect for each other.

00:04:33.000 They also have to be in their own space to understand themselves. And then they have to have they have their limitations. And they also, you know within relationship, it's really truly love and respect. But again, because of dysfunctionality and the underlying issues that some of us, and I know I don't know whether we have, it can create havoc. And so that was one thing, the digital spying. Do you have anything you'd like to add on digital spying?

00:05:02.000 No, I've never really experienced that part of someone invading my life. That's exactly what it is. It's invading your life. But sometimes your heart can be, okay, I don't mind because I have nothing to hide. Yeah And it wasn't that I had anything to hide, but it kept being abusive. That's what it was. It was always wanting to know who's texting you? What are they texting about?

00:05:28.000 And you know who's calling and listening to my phone calls. And if you're talking to them, let me be with you. So those are the type of things that create, I don't know, but jealousy too, but it's invading your life. And that's so unhealthy. And when you're dealing with all of this, and that's just one aspect of it. There's so many more that can come up. We can talk in about outbursts. And you know I think we've all had to deal with that. But I know I did in a relationship.

00:05:57.000 And again, I'm being honest and vulnerable to let you know. And I'm not perfect by any means, but these things can come in and then you can have reactive anger, which is very appropriate because we have emotions and God's given us emotions to let us know that really something is wrong here. So with the anger that comes up, because it's not fair, it's not right. It's somebody trying to control you. And if you give up to me, it's a very difficult thing for you to kind of pull back.

00:06:27.000 You have to walk through the steps. You can do it. But when you're doing, you're going to create a codependency, which is what we don't want to do. Yeah. Do you have anything you'd like to share? Yeah, I do. In outbursts, I mean, like Gerard said, we've experienced so much of this. Probably all of these things we're talking to you about. We may not give you an example of everyone that was ours. But I think for me, and I would say for you too, in our relationships, it is our heart initially to want to think the best of our partner.

00:07:00.000 And as time goes on and things start happening and you have that first phase that we talked about last week, and then it comes up to this, you're already beginning to think, you know, what is going on here and why is this happening? Outbursts in in my life.

00:07:20.000 I've had people to get extremely angry and to the point of not happy with the way that I was maybe putting something in order, maybe something hanging something on the wall or putting something in the garden to create a border and literally being pushed out of the way and told I'm not doing it right in in a burst of anger.

00:07:47.000 And so, you know, that makes you feel less and makes you feel fear because you're not sure what that person's going to do next. And it makes you feel like they think you don't know how to do anything. It creates a lot of anxiety too. And your heart is racing, palpitations can come about, and then you have just emotions and all of the body functions that are unhealthy.

00:08:17.000 And that's what your body can't do. Your body in that sustained place that you are when these things happen is not healthy. It's very detrimental to your health. And another thing, if you don't mind me sharing, yeah that was on top of this was the whereabouts. So that means if you're out and about, these people are following you, they want to know your exact location, and they're wondering what you're doing, what time you're going to be back, and you know what time you're going to get to the place you say.

00:08:49.000 So they're controlling. And you know some people may laugh at this, that you know how could you get into that type of situation, but it can happen. And it's the gradual aspect of all of this. As we mentioned, we had the common examples last week. And this week, we're going into the elevated examples. And it's really, really important from our hearts to let you know that not only have we lived to them, but they're out there and so many people go through this. And again, we're talking about the church itself.

00:09:20.000 I'm bringing that in because trauma awareness and these type of activities are not really truly understanding. And we'll get into another example of that a little later, but the whereabouts. And then just wanting to know you know exactly what time you can be back and trying to control your socialization. For me, it was about who I could go out with and you know where I could meet a person or the examples of trying to get in the way of you seeing your family.

00:09:53.000 So they're trying to control all these things to get you into more of a codependency. And some of these examples that we've mentioned, I'm going like this because I have them up on screen, but we just try to enlighten you about these activities that go on. And do you know how many people are behind closed doors that this happens to? And we have that in churches, we have pastors, we have lay people who are in the pews who do these things.

00:10:24.000 And it's not right. And as we talked about last week with Dr. Diane Langberg, that the examples that she brought about the church and how God left heaven, beautiful heaven, and came down to the dungeons in our heart to help us repair them, to remove that heart of stone and give us the heart of flesh. And all of these are true examples of what happens to people, and it's more prevalent than you think.

00:10:55.000 And that's a sad part. And our hearts go out to you because, again, not only have we walked through it, but we want you to be aware of this because if you're going through anything like this, you need help. You need help to understand the circumstances, to have people come and support you. Yeah And that's the thing. We need support in our lives. And that's what got me through it, was the support because I'm a person who is very quiet.

00:11:22.000 And so if something was happening inside my four walls, I was staying there because I felt I would betray the other person if I brought it to somebody else's attention. But finally, when you get to that really breaking point where you're just, it's almost like the straw the bulk of camel's back because it's so unhealthy and so detrimental to your health, as I mentioned, and your mental health. And it can affect your relationship with God. It can affect your relationship with others. And you know sometimes we pull away.

00:11:52.000 We don't think others see it, but they do. So this is where a good support system comes in. And so when you're dealing with some of these factors, again, you need to reach out for help. Please do that. And that's what our ministry is for. And we're listing other resources that are appropriate for you. And you know for a particular example that we talked about was somebody who may be in the church. I know we keep going back to the church.

00:12:23.000 It's not for guilt, but it's just to show you that not all of the resources of the church are good. We want to make sure that you have the true, correct ways of getting resources and help from the true people and Christian organizations and churches that are truly trauma aware and their hearts desires to help you. And there are many out there. I'm not saying that they're all bad, but there are a lot of resources from so-called trauma where churches that are just unhealthy.

00:12:56.000 Right. Yeah. And if you're misguided in that, then you're not going to be taking the steps toward your healing. And it's not what the Lord wants for us. Like George said, he came down from heaven into the messiness of our lives, our hearts, the darkness of what is living there. And he wants us to be free from that. So there are.

00:13:26.000 There are resources out there, some that are better than others that can help us to get free from all of those. Yeah. And to follow up further with what God did for us, we were having a chat before the show, and it's just in awe of what we have seen from a biblical perspective from the beginning of time. And we see the evil that has penetrated our world.

00:13:52.000 And there are reasons where we'll get that into a deeper understanding of that in one of the shows. But when you're looking from God's perspective, His love for us is just so beautiful. And when he saw all that was happening, he can see the end from the beginning. He still thought it was worth it. He saw Alison. I saw myself. He saw you out there understanding and accepting Jesus. And he said it's all worth it.

00:14:22.000 But that's how much that He has the worth that He has placed on us. And I can't overstate that. The worth that we each of us have is amazing for what He did for us. And again, we're here in the will of God because we are His hands and feet. And we're going to preach it from the mountaintops, the love of God. And it's also our heart to help you when you're going through these terrible struggles.

00:14:54.000 And they are terrible. They're deep, they're hurt, hurtful, they're wounding, and just the thought of us being here to be able to help you just gives us so much satisfaction. And it's the love of Jesus that does it for us. So as we go, do you have any thoughts with that? Well, I was just going to say, you know, it is the love of God and it is his heart for help to come.

00:15:24.000 And I mean, we we don't really know anything except for his love and being able to share that love and what he's he's shared with us and the experiences that we've had and how he's taken us through that. And then of course, you know, we have worked really hard to learn more about it so that we can be whole and wholehearted. But he loves us so deeply and what he did for us, our whole worth comes out of that.

00:15:54.000 It's nothing about us. I mean, it's who he is. And so just I just wanted to, I guess, emphasize that. Right. And the reason we're doing that, if you don't mind, is that we understand so many people don't have the true aspect of God as we mentioned before. And they've been in relationships where they don't see God for that person.

00:16:19.000 And if they're a Christian or professed Christian, and they're treating other people as abusers, perpetrators of some horrific acts that really injure people and mentally, physically, and emotionally. They don't know. They just don't understand what we're talking about. We understand that, but we want to let you know that that's the truth. There's an absolute truth, and that's it. And we just want to come alongside you and really try to help you get through some of these things that you're going through and to know that we have gone through.

00:16:52.000 So we always say that, at least from my perspective, is that it's the me too. Yeah We have been there, and that's our heart's desire is to help you to understand that what we're going through, we're talking about is very real. So many people go through it. And if you're going through it, we want to help you in every way we can. And that's just our heart's desire. We know that families are waking up every morning experiencing conflict, pain, heartache from so many of the examples that we've given from all of this.

00:17:28.000 And there is a way to work through it. And I think that's what Gerard is saying. We can help you find that way. Right. And as we work through it, again, we've mentioned this before, it's not overnight. We wish that we could do something that would be just instant, but it's not. But the good thing is you walk through a day by day with the support group that you have, with the support people in your life. And when you get to the other side, you look back.

00:17:55.000 And another thing I have to mention too is we still, as we were talking about earlier, there are things that triggers trigger us even to this day. But it's the tools that you have to understand that. And it doesn't make it less hurtful, but you can understand it. And you're understanding from a light of help that you have of the toolbox that you have that helps you to get through that. So you know you're going to go through the emotions. That's okay.

00:18:25.000 You'll cry. Something I never cry, that's for sure. I was crying yesterday. So as you go through it, you're crying and then your emotions take over and that's okay, but you know that's okay. That's the best part of it. We don't know everything. We never do until we get to the other side. But we do understand that through what we have learned and it's, you know, through research, schooling, experience, counseling, we are trying to bring that to you for understanding, support, love, information.

00:19:02.000 That's a big key, to be informed of these things and to understand that these things are wrong. You know, for me, one of the toughest things was the black and white issue. It was that there's so many gray areas that the perpetrators and abusers will put you in to get you to the point of, well, is it really me or am I, you know, I just don't know. I'm not understanding this. I'm not sure, did I create this? And that's what they want to do.

00:19:32.000 And it's wrong because they have all the insecurities. And I'm not saying that you don't contribute to it. But for the most part, when you're in an abusive situation, there's nothing you did to deserve that. Nothing. There's just nothing you did. That's just the way their makeup is. That's the way they want to control you. That's the way with whatever emotions they're going through, that's their issue. However, it's wrong. And like we said last week, it's a crime. Yeah And people don't take that into consideration, in my opinion, they don't.

00:20:02.000 And do you want anything to add? Well, I was, we each have a responsibility to manage what we have grown up with or what our masks are or what we the emotions that we have or the controlling traits, I guess, that we have, we have a responsibility inside of our marriage to take care of those, each one of us individually and together.

00:20:32.000 And that responsibility goes not just to our spouse, but that's between us and God too. So I wanted to say that. And also, I think about, you know, you were talking about the church earlier and how there are even pastors and there are people sitting in the pews. Yes, but even pastors who are have this wrong way of thinking.

00:20:59.000 And there was an example. I was listening to a video of Diane. I keep, we keep saying her name because we just really love her. She's she's very, very well versed. She understands what people are going through. But one of the things she was sharing was that she saw that a woman who was the wife of a pastor was being abused emotionally and she very lovingly approached the pastor and told him that she felt like maybe there was an issue and that she would like to help.

00:21:35.000 And he basically told her, and these are not the exact words that she used, but for in a nutshell, well, this is about women and she just needs to understand what her place is basically. That's basically what he said. And I think that all stems from the misunderstanding of the word submit, which we can talk about more at another time.

00:22:03.000 The submission for women is a huge misunderstanding. So what was your body? Absolutely. And when you just go a little bit further, it just says, " Husbands, love your wives as Christ, as Christ loves the church. " yeah And so they kind of forget that. Yeah And again, that's one thing with the so-called Christianese. They use these type of examples and they take scripture out of context big time.

00:22:32.000 And the sad part is those individuals are hurt and hurt very much so. And so we don't want that to happen. We want to try to enlighten, I guess, bring to the forefront. Some of these things are really happening within the church, within people's lives. And we just truly want to help you. And I just can't say it any more than that. We just want to help you to be aware of these things. And as you go through them, you're not alone.

00:23:01.000 But we're here with you to support you as you go through that. And again, it's not a short quick-term fix. It is something that's going to help you over the long haul. But again, you'll be healthier and you'll be understanding and you'll be in a much better place when you get through it. And again, the love of God is there. So many people just haven't seen it the proper way that it's there. So that's what we hope to do as we move forward with our shows. And do you have anything else you'd like to add?

00:23:31.000 Any other issues? No, just that, you know, we understand what you're going through. Yes. We've been there. And we also understand the love of God. We've come to know him and understand the depth of love that he has for us. And we want you to know the truth about that instead of what someone else might be. Right. Misrepresenting. Exactly. That's the best way to put it. I was going to mention something, but that's the best way to put it.

00:24:01.000 So we're going to make this a two-part series. We'll be back shortly. We didn't want to go too long with one episode. We wanted to break it up a little bit. So we just want to just thank you for being a part of the show. Is there anything else you want to add? No, I'm good. Other than if you have any questions or if we've talked about something that you don't understand, maybe, feel free to email us at This email address is being protected from spambots. You need JavaScript enabled to view it..

00:24:34.000 Right. And if you ever go to the website when you do go there, all our transcripts are there too. So if there's something that you heard that you'd really like to kind of review, it's all there. Yeah And we're here just to help you. We love you. We have been through things and the confusion of what we were going through the help we needed and not getting it is just the driver of our ministry to help people in need and to help people who want to be helped and to bring enlightenment to the issues that you're facing that they're very real and they're wrong.

00:25:14.000 Yes. Okay. Well, thank you again for joining and we love you and we thank you for joining our podcast at this point and we'll see you on the other side. See you soon. Thanks. Bye bye. Bye.