Allison Miller (00:02)
Welcome to a special episode of the MilMac podcast. Today we're going to do a unique episode of the podcast and we're going to be discussing trade life, meaning traditional life or an old school way of doing things, particularly as it relates to marital roles at home for women. And I've invited my friend, Jason Scott Montoya, a podcast host and an author to facilitate this interview. Jason, welcome to the podcast.

Jason Scott Montoya (00:32)
Thank you, Allison. Well, today we're going to talk about Lauren Southern, for those that don't know her. She is an online personality. It has quite an interesting story. And Mary Harrington published an article about her story and some of the ways she relates in some unconventional ways on unher .com. So we'll link to that article for anyone that wants to dive in. Mary Harrington, who embraced a progressive liberal ideology as a young person.

she ended up shedding her ideology when she discovered the reality and fulfillment of her being a mother, what that was like in the family. And some of that has to do with just the realities of being a mother and how that clashes with ideology and our own ways of thinking gets sort of challenged. So while the author came from one extreme, the story of Lauren Southern comes from the other side. So one is far left and one is far right.

Harrington states in her article the following, I'm going to go ahead and read a passage here. Some take more hardline positions that women should never work, for example, that women should always be submissive, or even that women's rights to vote should be repealed. But surely any stance which risks lending momentum to such extreme arguments cannot be in a woman's interest. So while Harrington and Lauren have different backgrounds, they share a lot in common with their radical ideologies. Mary continues.

Both of us embraced ideologies that felt inspired in the free -floating world of the internet. And both of us, albeit in different ways, have course corrected back towards reality, in part via the fiercely practical experience of caring for a child. So Mary discovers in this article and continues, she illuminates the nightmare that Lauren soon found herself in by embracing this traditional lifestyle. Not that it was traditional, but the sort of radical version of this traditional style.

Lauren left media at 22 to embrace a socially conservative template for women, the lifestyle often idealized by social media influencers as trad life, except it wasn't at all. 50s, pinafores and cute cupcakes, it was a living hell. Nor as she has learned, was she the only conservative woman in this position. So to set the stage, I wanted to read some of those passages before me and Alison kind of talk about these ideas.

and her own experiences and story. But before we go deeper into the article, Alice, and share a little bit about your background and how it intersects with these two stories and what additional context you can give us to shape the conversation we're about to have.

Allison Miller (03:16)
Yeah, sure. Well, when I read this article, it was just uncanny to me how similar mine and Lauren's situations were, not from the perspective of being some public person and being in media, but and having to and leaving that, but from being an individual who,

left the United States, went to another country, gave up pretty much everything that I knew in the United States to follow my then husband for his career. And while being there, experienced a lot of the things that Lauren talks about that caused me to basically break.

Jason Scott Montoya (04:07)
Yeah.

Allison Miller (04:13)
And so my background, Jason, includes having gone through from the time I was very young, having experienced sexual abuse, emotional abuse, rape, the brokenness of multiple relationships throughout my young teens into adulthood, feeling a lot of shame.

growing up in the church, but not getting the full gospel. And by that I mean misunderstanding by teachers of what they were teaching. And a big topic was submission. So, and that's something I want us to talk about later because I think that really affects

how relationships play out. And when I say play out, I'm not using that word lightly. You know, it takes two in a relationship. And so understanding the perspective and where that comes from.

Jason Scott Montoya (05:30)
Yeah, and I guess I wanna differentiate, I think some of these topics can be complex. And so what we're trying to get at is, one is there's sort of this way of thinking or the way of living that is its own thing, but then there's the exploitation of that.

in abusing people. And so I think kind of what you're getting at is if you teach someone or someone learns it wrongly, or if you teach them wrongly, then it makes them vulnerable to being abused or being in a toxic situation. And when they're in it, they'll think that it's normal because that's what they're being taught. Is that a good way to frame it? Yeah. And so what we're trying to do is bring the truth to those situations.

Allison Miller (06:16)
Exactly. Yes.

Jason Scott Montoya (06:24)
and saying, you know, certain, some of these behaviors and actions and words are wrong and should not be tolerated. And so we want to help people understand it in a more healthy way so that they can see the red flags and then respond to it, whether they're involved directly or whether they're maybe in a community that they're witnessing something like this happening or even in a community where they're actively participating and creating that context.

Does that make sense? Yeah. So with your story and her story, you relate a lot to what she's going through. And I guess, would you mind just giving a couple of the beats of her story that kind of give people that haven't read the article just kind of a quick overview of her experience or her journey?

Allison Miller (06:54)
Yes, 100%.

Well, just her moving to another country, willing to just kind of trade in her life as this person who had a career and going away, getting into life with her husband, believing that that was going to be a good life.

And within four years, she came out of that relationship, a broken, abused woman. And it goes back to what you were just speaking about, Jason. If we, I just believe what we don't know can hurt us. And so with her story and my story, they intersect a lot.

in that.

We both moved away. We left everything.

that was a support system that was family that was anything, whatever it was for me, it was church, family. Believing that you could just go into a new country and integrate and have a good life. And I'm not saying you can't, that can happen. But there are foundational...

Jason Scott Montoya (08:52)
Yeah.

Allison Miller (08:59)
pieces that need to be in place for something like that to be successful.

Jason Scott Montoya (09:07)
Yeah, I'd agree. And me and my wife, we got married, we went on our honeymoon to Hawaii, and we were moved from Arizona to Atlanta. So we moved across the country. And it was very difficult, even though it was a voluntary choice in that sense. But we left everything we'd known and everyone we'd known, and we had to start over. And it was very difficult in that regard. But I can only imagine going into like,

while it was difficult for me, I can imagine much worse situations. And so I always have, whenever I hear someone has like moved across the country to Atlanta and I know them, I'm like, let me know how I can help you because I just know how difficult, just in a normal basis, how difficult that can be, let alone add the other relational factors. The other thing I would wanna kind of just kind of maybe contrast is if Lauren had married someone that was a wonderful, loving husband, like this may not have been.

you know, she might have transitioned to a different type of lifestyle, and it may not have been a nightmare, you know? But it was because of the abuse, the abuser that turned it into a nightmare. So I wanted to highlight that and just get your thoughts on just that element, right?

Allison Miller (10:12)
Exactly, yeah.

I agree. Jason.

As young women, we all want to have that wonderful life with someone and to have a loving husband. And if Lauren, if I had gone into another country, another culture, another whole world without anyone except for a wonderful, loving husband who is supportive, who is nurturing, who exhibited

the love that needed to be there, then it could have been very successful. Yeah.

Jason Scott Montoya (11:03)
Yeah, and it would have, maybe they would have discovered some of those lifestyle layers were not working, but that's part of the dynamic is when it's not working, is the spouse receptive, right? And so one of the things I've read a couple of years ago was one of the core tenets of whether a marriage will be successful or fail is these ideas.

whether or not people's bids for connection, you know, asking for help or offering to share something or expressing oneself, if those are reciprocated by the spouse. And so in the case in this situation and your situation, it was essentially the sort of bids of connection or these sort of expressions that were just either nor dismissed. And then it creates this trap that you're stuck inside.

Now help us understand, you know, all of us who have been married have dealt with a lot of dynamics and some of maybe these types of issues, but there's a difference between sort of a normal conflict and range of issues and something that becomes chronically abusive. How would you differentiate those two? Sort of normal and then abnormal.

Allison Miller (12:29)
Well, I think normal abuse, if you will, is, you know, there's a lack of understanding what you're doing. You talk about it. There's willingness on both parties' parts to discover what it is that's going on and want to bring healing to the relationship and want to be different because they want to.

Jason Scott Montoya (12:53)
Yeah.

you

Allison Miller (12:58)
On the other side of that, there are people that intentionally

set out to hurt people.

Sometimes it's unconscious like we just talked about. Sometimes it's very intentional and conscious. It's a control thing. And anytime anyone tries to control another person, you're not going to have success. Control is not a part of the process.

Jason Scott Montoya (13:33)
Yeah.

Allison Miller (13:35)
of a healthy relationship. It's not a dynamic that is a part of a healthy relationship. And listening, you know, if you do feel controlled in a relationship, being able to express that, it's like you say, you get stuck within yourself. And so it's almost like you're in a prison within yourself and you can't be who you really want to be.

Jason Scott Montoya (14:05)
Yeah.

Allison Miller (14:05)
who you really think you are. You can't say anything. You can't express your opinions. You can't.

You can't be.

who you are. And that is a very vital part of being human and being.

Jason Scott Montoya (14:23)
Yeah.

Allison Miller (14:29)
purposeful in this lie.

Jason Scott Montoya (14:31)
Yeah. Well, and I think the other important thing, well, one thing I think you mentioned that there's a difference between someone that hurts you, that loves you and wants to reconcile and work through things. And there's a different reverse, someone that's just exploiting you, right? And I think we don't, when we're younger, we probably don't know the difference. Sometimes we just conflate the two. And then we realize there is a difference if we run into that person.

Allison Miller (14:47)
Yes.

Jason Scott Montoya (14:57)
And I think on that note, I think the other part of it is when you run into someone that either unconsciously or consciously is trying to exploit you, take advantage of you or get from you and hurt you for their own selfish gain, usually we're not. We are one not trained or taught that's a possibility. And then when that possibility makes itself comes out, we're just like side, we're...

Side -swiped, you know, we're just it hits us and we're not we're derailed and When you're not prepared for it, it's difficult even if you are prepared it's it's still challenging to deal with it, but it's At least more manageable with setting and enforcing boundaries. But what would you say to that dynamic in terms of? just getting Getting hit by a semi truck without knowing there was a semi truck even out there, you know

Allison Miller (15:29)
We're derailed. Yeah.

Well, I can only speak from my personal experience and what I know is helpful in our lives. And for myself, hitting a breaking point, I'm a very strong woman. I come from a background of very strong women. I come from a background of women who we just don't talk about things that happen. We just go on.

Jason Scott Montoya (16:24)
Yeah.

Allison Miller (16:26)
And so in my personal experience, I had to stop. And I mean, I really was, I was stopped. I wasn't ready to stop. I got stopped. Whether I knew consciously or unconsciously that I was ready, I hit a breaking point. And at that breaking point, I began self -discovery and

really trying to understand who I was, what was causing me to be in relationships like I was in, why I wasn't valued, because I mean, everything that I knew about what marriage was, the ideal is that you get married, you're in love, you have children, you build this life together and everything lasts, you're happily ever after. But that's not the real world.

Jason Scott Montoya (17:17)
Yeah.

Allison Miller (17:22)
it takes work in relationships. So anyway, back to that, I had to dig in to understand myself and go, well, you know, I'm the common denominator in this because I did have multiple broken relationships. I'm the common denominator. What is it that's drawing me to these relationships? And what is it that is making me feel like that's what I deserve?

And so I really did a deep dive into who I was. And at the same time that I was doing that, I had a spiritual awakening. And so I had never experienced the Holy Spirit in a way that I did. And the Holy Spirit was guiding me through all of this.

to understand more about myself, but moreover to understand the truth about who God is. Because when you go through these things, and mine started at a very young age, you have a distorted view of who God is, and you don't know His true character, His true purpose for you. And...

So just going on that journey of discovering my true value, my true worth, the way that I'm loved and seeking Him versus staying in, you know, running to another relationship, which was my habit in the past.

Jason Scott Montoya (19:04)
Yeah.

Yeah.

Allison Miller (19:19)
So through that process, not only did I understand my own true worth, I understood how loved I was by God and I got the truth about how deeply he cares for us and also just had a wonderful example through that relationship.

of what a husband and wife love is really about. And it wasn't anything that I had ever experienced.

Jason Scott Montoya (19:53)
Yeah. And how would, yeah. Yeah. So how would you contrast that description of your discovery of God's love with the, with your, what it was like to grow up in the church in terms of, what was the distorted experience that you had?

Allison Miller (20:17)
Well, there were a few, but a big one I mentioned earlier was submission.

and the submission aspect of it was that women submit to their husbands. And it is a scripture. And it is, it wouldn't be there if it wasn't something that was valuable to our relationships. I mean, I believe God's word. But what happened is that you got that information, but you didn't get any very practical steps on

Jason Scott Montoya (20:34)
Yeah.

Allison Miller (20:55)
what that looked like, what that means, what it means for the man. And...

and how, you know, I submitted.

to men who were willing to take me through experiences in my life that were totally not what God's design was for me, but I didn't know that. I just thought I was supposed to submit. So there was a huge distortion of what the scripture teaches us because there was no teaching on it. And to understand that.

So you become very, very vulnerable. You do whatever somebody wants you to do. And also the whole...

you know, the.

the adverse childhood experiences that I had in my life that carried forward the result of those, the outcomes of those, that carried forward into my life as a young woman, a teen, a young woman, a young adult woman, affected every decision that I made, every one of them.

Jason Scott Montoya (22:24)
Yeah.

Allison Miller (22:28)
I didn't know how all of that was affecting my life. I had no clue. And it really wasn't until, you know, like I said, I started this journey of healing through Christ and through community and through loving people who cared about me genuinely. And...

wanted to see me well and helped and free free Jason you have

Jason Scott Montoya (23:08)
Yeah.

Allison Miller (23:12)
I mentioned the prison before to be able to be free to express that you care about something or to be able to be free to even say, yes, I was abused because it's scary to say that to someone because a lot of times you're told that you're not. Honey, just suck it up. And there's also that whole

Jason Scott Montoya (23:34)
Yeah. Yeah.

Allison Miller (23:41)
Besides submission, there's the whole dynamic of, you know, you don't get a divorce. I mean, if you're a good Christian, you don't get a divorce. And never one time was it God's plan for men or women to be in abusive relationships and have to continually be in that without...

Jason Scott Montoya (23:47)
Yeah.

Allison Miller (24:10)
coming through the healing process. If a person denies it, if a person doesn't want to do what it takes, and it's hard work, I will tell you that. I'm not saying that it's simple, but if a person, if you have two people who are married and there's an abuser and there's the victim, and the abuser does not want to do anything to change and thinks there's nothing about them that needs to change.

and will not get help, then I believe that, you know, there's enough grace to cover that.

Jason Scott Montoya (24:51)
And I think if we force that person to submit to that abuse, we're actually just part of the abuse.

Allison Miller (25:00)
Yes, we are. And a lot of well -meaning people do that, but they don't know. I mean, I remember sitting in church one time listening to a preacher after every, I mean, this was years later after I was free and hearing him talk about divorce and how it was stated so much that it

Jason Scott Montoya (25:02)
And we're enabling it.

Mm -hmm.

Yeah.

Allison Miller (25:30)
It was easy for me to start feeling bad about myself because of having been divorced. But at the same time, I knew that there was, he was misguided in how he delivered his message.

Jason Scott Montoya (25:46)
Yeah, well, I think it's also, I think that's kind of what, when I mentioned earlier, the difference between normal and abnormal is because giving an abnormal situation normal advice is dangerous. But if you give a normal advice to a normal situation, it's probably fine, right? So if you're in a normal conflict, or in a normal marriage that has its conflict, and you're saying to the person, you know,

Allison Miller (26:04)
Yes.

Jason Scott Montoya (26:16)
hey, you know, you need to just work through this, da da da da. You know, that may be okay in that situation, but if that person is being abused, then obviously you're actually, your ignorance is making the problem worse. And I think that's also part of the issue is to your point about like well -meaning is some people may be well -meaning and even have like experience talking with a lot of them couples, they've just never dealt with an abusive or really toxic situation, right?

Allison Miller (26:42)
Right, right. They don't know how.

Jason Scott Montoya (26:45)
Yeah, they might not even know that it exists, like there is such a thing, you know.

Allison Miller (26:50)
Yes, exactly. Yeah, go ahead.

Jason Scott Montoya (26:53)
And I think that kind of interests, yeah, yeah. Well, I can say that intersects with this idea that's kind of really throughout the article and you've mentioned it is the difference between possibility, potential versus reality. And so our set of beliefs, hey, in a marriage, if there's a situation, you should do this, this and this, but it doesn't match the reality of an actual abusive relationship, whether it's emotional or physical or both.

Allison Miller (27:06)
Mm -hmm.

Jason Scott Montoya (27:23)
But it's those real world consequences, it's that reality, that harsh reality that is not as forgiving as we'd like it to be. So tell us about that dynamic of reality versus sort of our ungrounded beliefs in that reality.

Allison Miller (27:46)
When I think about idealism versus reality, a lot of us are raised as women to believe that if we...

If we marry, which in my background we were raised to become wives and be married.

there was a, the perception that the husband was the one who was going to be the protector, be the provider, be the guide, be the one who leads you.

But the reality of that was, is well, I mean, kind of like we've talked about before, Jason, it kind of sounded like, well, that's who God is for us. That's who Jesus is. And that puts a heavy weight on a husband. And I'm not excusing anything. I'm just saying you go into it believing that he's going to lead you in the right way.

And you may not even know what the right way is, but you feel that right way. It resonates with your heart when you feel, when you know that someone is.

Jason Scott Montoya (29:06)
Yeah.

Allison Miller (29:18)
nurturing you, loving you from a pure heart because they care about you and they want you to be the best version of yourself and be all that God created you to be. You know that in your heart. When the reality hits is when you marry and that husband is

either come from another background with their own ACEs, adverse childhood experiences, never gone through any healing, can take you down a path. And because you're willing to submit and do anything to hold on to that because you're supposed to be married and also you want love in your life. And if you don't feel loved without

a man or vice versa in your life.

There's already a hole in our heart. We're missing something. I may be getting off track from your question, but I just think it's very important for us to understand that we can have this idea. And I think every young woman grows up with the idea that she wants to be married. And I believe that God puts those desires in her heart and she wants that life.

Jason Scott Montoya (30:26)
Yeah.

Allison Miller (30:52)
She wants someone that she can do life with. She wants a partner. She wants companionship. She wants to have children and raise children together and have a life together. But...

It's the reality of that is, is that there are difficulties. And when you bring two people together and two personalities together, there's a lot of work that has to be done. A lot of leaning into the difficult times, having difficult conversations, loving one another through those.

And if that doesn't happen, if you dismiss reality can be, you are dismissed, whatever you say has no value.

There's so many elements, there's so many pieces of it, and it carries so deep within our heart, our soul and our mind. And it...

begins to make us feel less and it begins, you know, if you get treated less, you feel less, right? I mean, so, you know, there's, there's superiority that comes into the dynamic versus being equal partners, seeing one another as created in the image of God, wanting the best for one another.

Jason Scott Montoya (32:24)
Mm -hmm.

Allison Miller (32:40)
You know, I just believe from my own experience that not having a true foundation, not knowing the truth.

about who I was, about what the scriptures say, about...

what real love is, you know, you can replace God's name with love or vice versa. God is love. And we, when we go through these things, we experience a very distorted view of who God is for us. And we feel alone. We don't feel like we have anybody on our side. Nobody believes us.

We're afraid to tell anybody and then when we do they don't believe us or they have answers that are not the right answers, like as you said, which creates more damage.

So I just believe having a healthy foundation. There's a lot of extremism.

a lot of.

teaching out there that's either misguided or false. Yeah.

Jason Scott Montoya (33:52)
Yeah, and how does that extreme, yeah, how does that extremism make people more vulnerable?

Allison Miller (34:02)
Well, it hurts them. I mean, it's not helping them become better people. It's making them feel shame and it's making them feel like they can't accomplish and be what they need to be. And truly, you know, you can't be anything without having Christ, knowing Christ, understanding who He is, what He did for us.

that he really wants us to be reconciled into a relationship with him and that he has a redemption plan for our life. And I don't know, you know, if the extremism, I mean, I have worked with people who are in ministry with women. I mean, I'll just give you a small example. I mean, there are people out there who believe that, you know, mutilating women's Gentalia is the way.

to keep them from experiencing good things. I don't want to get into a deep conversation about that, but I want to say that's extreme. Telling a woman she needs to submit to a man without giving a clear understanding and clarity around that scripture and the true understanding of what the man's role is in that and for the woman to understand.

is very damaging. It hurts you more. And you're, you know, the more people...

The more extremism that there is, the more you see people trying to control others.

and

Jason Scott Montoya (35:58)
Well, and it almost seems like some of the shame that you're describing is part of the control mechanism. If you keep people in the ecosystem using shame to keep them doing what you want them to be doing in terms of, it's the ideal for the abuser that you're continuing to live in that shame and continuing to submit despite their not being virtuous, right? But it's not the ideal that you wanted when you went into marriage, because you're the one that has to suffer the consequences of their...

Allison Miller (36:21)
Yes. Yes.

Jason Scott Montoya (36:28)
of their, what they want.

Allison Miller (36:32)
Yes, that's right. And the more vulnerable you are, the more you can be taken advantage of, if you will. And,

Jason Scott Montoya (36:42)
Yeah, because if you're not mature enough, you're just in over your heads. And that just, even if you knew or, you just, the cards are stacked against you and it's almost an impossible situation, I think.

Allison Miller (36:57)
Right. The other side of that is that when you overcome that and you have a mind shift and you're able to be able to express, you know, well, I don't see it that way or no, I didn't say that or I don't agree with that.

Jason Scott Montoya (37:13)
Yeah.

Allison Miller (37:20)
A lot of times what you'll see is the person disappear because they don't like that you're not going to submit.

Jason Scott Montoya (37:26)
Yeah. Mm -hmm. Yeah. And I think that's actually a really helpful point because from my own experience of learning things, setting and enforcing boundaries, when you do learn that lesson and then you do that on the front end of new relationships, they disappear. And I don't know if it's conscious or subconscious, but whatever it is, those people tend to just, they're repelled and they disappear. And so,

Allison Miller (37:44)
Yes.

Jason Scott Montoya (37:57)
It's easiest to deal with at the front end when it's a new person than it is someone that you've been in a relationship for four years, obviously. But if you learn those lessons and learn to have and enforce those boundaries, and then one of the reasons that boundaries are so powerful in this dynamic is if you have and set in force, if you have boundaries and you enforce them, when someone violates them and then you enforce it,

how they react to that is you get an indication of who they are. So if you say, hey, I don't like that, please don't do that again, and they're not willing to own that and change, then that's a sign that they're gonna keep doing that as the relationship progresses. And I don't know, would you add anything to that? Am I off the mark there?

Allison Miller (38:52)
No, you're absolutely on the mark. The more you don't use... I mean, you may not even know what boundaries are, especially if you've been sexually violated in your life as a youngster, numerous over and over and experienced complex trauma because, you know, every boundary has been crossed and it's normal. But once you learn boundaries and limits,

you have a greater capacity for having healthy relationships because just like you said, when you repel it, their response to that is going to show who they are and what they're going to do continuously throughout the relationship. Yes, that's how it is. I mean, I've had experiences where, you know, you ask for someone not to do something.

Jason Scott Montoya (39:43)
Yeah.

Allison Miller (39:50)
Even if you've known them for a very long time, I mean, it doesn't have to be, it's preferable to start it in the very beginning. But even if there's been a break in the relationship and there's the attempt to have a reconciliation or to just try to be friends or anything, and you don't have those boundaries, they're gonna continue to do the things to you that...

Jason Scott Montoya (40:18)
Yeah. Yeah. And it goes two ways too. I think when that happens and we also identify well where we're, and that's kind of the key to what you said earlier. Like is it the boundaries identify these things and how both sides react to that is important. And I think then it also is an opportunity for both sides to identify where they can grow and change and.

Allison Miller (40:19)
have always been. When you implement them, it changes.

Jason Scott Montoya (40:48)
but it comes down to whether they want that or not. And if they don't, if it's more of a controlling relationship, it's really about, hey, I want to control you, although they may not say that specifically, but hey, I want to control you, so you need to do this, this, and this. Versus like a voluntary, like, hey, we're both agreeing to participate in this, sort of like a game, more like a game versus like a prison. Yeah, yeah.

Allison Miller (41:14)
Right, exactly. Yeah.

Jason Scott Montoya (41:17)
So I wanna dive into, there's another passage I wanna read that talks just about the dynamic of leaving the toxic situation and getting your thoughts on that. So Mary summarizes Lauren's story in the passage I'm about to read. Then abruptly, Lauren disappeared in 2019 to embrace marriage and motherhood in her husband's home country of Australia. She was, it seemed, all set to embrace the nurturing, feminine, domestic role promoted by right -wing traditionalists.

Allison Miller (41:24)
Mm -hmm.

Jason Scott Montoya (41:46)
Idealized by trad wife. That's sort of the slang term that's being used influencers and criticized by progressives as dangerous and stupid Four years later though southern caused a new round of shockwaves this time with a video recounting What happened next the breakdown of her abusive marriage her return to Canada as a single mother in a stint living hand -to -mouth in a cabin in the woods The implication there is that when she left life didn't get easier. It got worse in some ways

And so I want to talk about, you know, her exit and just the idea of sort of the wrath or the shame or whatever the manipulative tactic might be for to keep people from leaving. And then when they do leave, how they're treated. And this may be a more extreme case, but I think the root issue is the same. Tell us, you know, what your thoughts are on that.

Allison Miller (42:39)
Well, it's very difficult to leave. And...

There are a lot of, you know, if you have children, your children can be used as a tool or weapon against you. I'll take them away from you. I'll make this very difficult. And then after you do leave, it gets very difficult.

It's difficult emotionally. It's difficult physically. It's difficult financially. You may have been accustomed to a certain life. You may...

You have to go through a whole process of emotionally, of really knowing who you are. But just leaving, the just leaving part and getting out. Where do you go? What do you do? How do you heal? How do you make that happen? Who can help you? Who is...

really in your ballpark versus, you know, how can you trust anyone? You're in a place of complete distrust. You want help, but you don't know how to get help and who to turn to and how to make that happen.

Jason Scott Montoya (44:12)
Yeah.

Allison Miller (44:18)
The shame that you feel is incredible. Especially...

Because it's been so accepted in our society. I think, you know, obviously things are changing, but in our culture and in many other cultures, it's, it's okay for women to be mistreated. It's just okay. It's just part of it. And I think it was in early 20th century that up until that point, it was.

It was absolutely legal for husbands to abuse their wives. And so we've got this whole dynamic going on of, you know, illegal culture representation for women being made to feel like the bad person in a legal situation, manipulation being involved versus understanding what she's going through and trying to help her come through it.

so that she can live also. I mean, women go into poverty. It's proven that in most of those relationships, they have to, many of them have to leave in the night. They have to, it's almost an escape that has to be made. And how they do that can just be whether conscious or unconsciously,

Jason Scott Montoya (45:28)
Yeah.

Yeah.

Allison Miller (45:56)
being guided by the Holy Spirit on how to do that.

Jason Scott Montoya (45:58)
Yeah. Yeah.

Yeah, J .K. Rowling, the author of Harry Potter, she just, she has a very similar story to that in terms of her abusive relationship. And then in her case, she had a daughter and so she had to escape with her daughter and her, it was the Harry Potter manuscript. So she tells this story of trying to get out. So she's trying to, and then some things go wrong and it kind of derails, but then she's able to get out and go back to England. But,

Allison Miller (46:20)
Yes.

Jason Scott Montoya (46:31)
Yeah, that escape, it's like a heist type situation sometimes. I think the other thing is, part of what you're also saying is you kinda have to get to the point where you have nothing to lose because you're gonna lose everything in a way. And I don't know how much people get to that place. I think some people get to that place and they just sort of succumb to the despair. But others.

I think if those that have a relationship with God, we realize that our faith in God can carry us through that. Hey, I'm going to leave. We're going to leave Egypt. I'm going to trust that you're going to take me through the wilderness and to the promised land. But without that relationship with God, without submission to Him first and foremost over anything else, willing to lose everything else, it just seems like an almost impossible choice to leave.

Allison Miller (47:26)
Yeah, yeah, I think you have to just be ready to go. And you know, if you have children, just creating a creating a plan for what that looks like. And

Jason Scott Montoya (47:39)
Yeah.

Allison Miller (47:45)
and making that happen.

Jason Scott Montoya (47:45)
And I think, yeah, the other thing that comes to mind is you mentioned, you know, we talked about the reality versus the ideal. And I think in some ways that moving on, leaving the escape, if it's truly that severe of a situation, or even if it's a milder version of that, I think we have to let go of the ideal. Like I think some ways we try to make it keep working when it's toxic, because maybe we're holding on to that ideal and part of.

Exiting it is an acceptance. It's the grief that comes with that tragedy, but it's accepting the tragedy that happened versus Trying to pretend that this relationship was what we wanted it to be all along. Does that make sense? I don't know if that relates.

Allison Miller (48:31)
Yes, it does make sense. I think the letting go of the ideal is a process. I don't think that a person can just decide that overnight because if an abuser can reach his victim, he's going to be telling her she's crazy, that none of this ever happened, that he loves her, that he wants to be with her.

Jason Scott Montoya (48:37)
Yeah.

Mm -hmm.

all the signals that are probing her ideal.

Allison Miller (48:59)
Yes. And.

Jason Scott Montoya (49:01)
I am what you want me to be. You just don't know it. It's your fault. Yeah. Yeah.

Allison Miller (49:04)
Right, that's right, yeah. And so that's why I think it's so important to be around people that understand this, people that can help guide you in that, people that can help you understand in the beginning what is just idealism and what is reality.

Jason Scott Montoya (49:28)
Mmm.

what we want it to be versus what it really is, yeah.

Allison Miller (49:33)
Yeah, I mean, it's normal. Yeah.

Jason Scott Montoya (49:35)
And we can still want that, but we just don't want it to trap us, right?

Allison Miller (49:40)
Right. We don't want to go into a prison in a relationship. A relationship should be mutual. Relationships should be loving and kind. And of course, there are things that you work through. But...

Jason Scott Montoya (49:57)
Well, is some of that in terms of the shame, is it a fear of, well, the better alternative wouldn't want me. I have to accept this because this is all I'm going to get. This is the best I can get. Is that sort of part of the dynamic?

Allison Miller (50:13)
Yes, yes it is. You know, I'm not good enough for anyone else. At least this person's in my life. He's saying he loves me. You know, you're not going well. What he's doing aren't showing me that. But yes, you don't feel deserving of having that in your life. You don't feel that anybody else would look at you and think,

Jason Scott Montoya (50:18)
Yeah.

Mm -hmm.

Yeah.

Allison Miller (50:44)
There is a woman that I would like to spend my life with. You feel shame, you feel less than or not enough.

Jason Scott Montoya (50:58)
So you mentioned, I wanna talk about sort of the difference between the facade versus the reality in terms of you described it as the abuser saying, well, I do love you, I do care about you and sort of lying about the relationship and present trying to say that what you want, it is what you want. But there's another layer of that too. In the article, Lawrence quoted as,

in the article by Mary, she says, there are a lot of influencers who are not in good relationships, who are still portraying happy marriages publicly and bashing people for not being married while being in horrendous relationships. So they're very judgmental and critical, condemning, and then they're also pretending. And so you have this lie that sort of gets, maybe starts, and then it kind of permeates outwards, and then with a public figure, you're gonna have it more so.

But I know there are situations just in the local level where it's like wow everything they were portraying it seemed like they were happy and things are going well and and the reality was the opposite and that's sort of a repeated story but talk to us about the the truth and the lie and the the portrayal the mask and the unmask the double life The nightmare at home and the dream online on social media

Allison Miller (52:19)
Yeah.

Yeah, you know, social media wasn't real big when I was younger. But I've been exposed to it for the last probably 15 years as it's grown and have watched.

Jason Scott Montoya (52:29)
Yeah.

Allison Miller (52:44)
Social media is the Hollywood reel. Everything is great. I have a wonderful life. I'm married. My husband is wonderful. This is our home. And everything looks great.

Jason Scott Montoya (52:47)
Yeah.

Allison Miller (53:00)
I call that the mass.

I wore a mask for years. I wanted, and it wasn't a social media mask, and it wasn't a public mask. It was personal and with my friends and with my work relationships and all. Wearing the mask of looking really good on the outside and everything on the inside was just destroyed.

Jason Scott Montoya (53:33)
Mm -hmm.

Allison Miller (53:34)
not being able to live from an authentic self because of what I was living in.

Jason Scott Montoya (53:42)
Yeah.

Allison Miller (53:45)
And the crazy thing about that mask is that what we don't realize is that,

I'm going to say two things. People who know see you wearing the mask. They understand that. They know that. Also,

Until you decide to take the mask off and be real with yourself and be real with other people who love you, who are safe people. And I just want to emphasize that over and over and over, safe people. But until you are...

Jason Scott Montoya (54:27)
Yeah.

Allison Miller (54:33)
at a place where you can just go.

Okay, I've got to be real with myself.

Jason Scott Montoya (54:41)
Yeah.

Allison Miller (54:42)
I want transparency, I want authenticity, I want to live from a place that is who I really am. And living in this hell is not who I am and not what I was designed to be in. So does that answer your question?

Jason Scott Montoya (54:53)
Yeah.

Yeah, yeah, there's a new TV show that came out based on a video game, it's called Fallout. And one of the main characters is, these two main characters meet, and one of the characters does feel that shame because he kind of comes from this cultic, almost quasi -religious organization.

Allison Miller (55:12)
Mm -hmm.

Jason Scott Montoya (55:29)
and he doesn't meet the standards and he's shamed regularly. And so he ends up in a situation where he gets to present himself as someone different. And so he starts to do that. And then he has some successes and he meets this other character and he tells this new character and it's a female and a male, so it's like almost a romantic relationship. But he tells her the lie. And so then as an audience person, you're like, just tell her the truth, you know.

And he's telling her the lie because he doesn't want her to know who he really is. And so it goes on through several episodes. And eventually he tells her the truth and she just accepts him. She says, OK, you know, that's who you are. That's who I wanted to meet. That's who I wanted to to be friends with anyway. And it's a pretty powerful moment. And I think that's kind of. Not everyone's going to accept you, so it's dangerous.

if you do it with the wrong person, but that acceptance is actually what we're looking for. And I think what you're trying to say is that acceptance comes first and foremost through our relationship with God, is that we do come before Him that way as we are, and He accepts us and lifts us up. And when we take that step, then everything else that you're describing follows. Is that a good way to frame it?

Allison Miller (56:42)
Yes.

Yes, just exactly. The foundation, that is the foundation for any relationship, I believe, and specifically as we're talking about in a husband and wife role.

Jason Scott Montoya (56:56)
Yeah.

Yeah. So I want to read another passage where she lays out the ideology and just talk about how kind of how this, how did this happen? How did we get to here? At least in her story and get your thoughts on this. I'm gonna go ahead and read this passage from the article. There were warning signs from early on. If I ever disagreed with him in any capacity, he'd just disappear for days at a time. I remember there were nights where he'd call me worthless, empathetic.

then get in this car and leave. But she didn't see them. Thanks to the simplified anti -feminist ideology she absorbed and promoted. I had this delusional view of relationships that only women could be the ones that make or break them, and men can do no wrong. So she didn't spot the red flags, even as they grew more extreme. He'd lock me out of the house. I remember having a knock on the neighbor's door of a rainy night because he'd get upset and drive off without unlocking the house.

It was a very strange thing to go from being this public figure on a stage with people clapping to the girl crying, knocking on someone's door with no one home to get into, being abandoned with a baby. What are your thoughts on that? I mean, it ties into what we're saying, but what else would you add to that? What made this nightmare possible?

Allison Miller (58:20)
Well, I think there's an evil aspect to it. There's an intention of evil keeping us from knowing the truth. I believe that if you, you know, in this specific case, and I can relate to this in a different way, but very much the same, there are warning signs.

Jason Scott Montoya (58:44)
Yeah.

Allison Miller (58:47)
when we get into relationships with abusers, there are warning signs. But because of what we believe, because we do have this idealistic view of what a relationship is, and because maybe we're taught from childhood that having a man

in your life, being married to him is the answer to everything. Every problem that you've ever had. You may be willing to overlook the red flags without even knowing that you're overlooking them. And, you know, being locked out of the house, being chased with guns, being called names.

being.

condemned.

None of that is healthy and none of that is what a person is going to that loves you is they're not going to do those things to you.

When you go in her case, just going from being a public figure and people loving her and, you know, speaking out about what she was speaking out about to being this heartbroken, broken woman.

trying to reach someone to help her.

Alone?

with her child.

She didn't know the truth. She didn't know what love really was. She didn't know that.

She was so deeply loved. She didn't know that...

Jason Scott Montoya (1:01:08)
Yeah.

Allison Miller (1:01:13)
I mean, the whole dynamic of what you get taught throughout your life, Jason, if it's distorted, if it's not the truth, you're going to grow up thinking these red flags are OK. And also, I think the element of.

forgiveness comes into this scenario because when you're in that situation, when you're in these situations with people and you see these warning signs as Christians were taught to forgive, as people were taught to be forgiving, whether you're a Christian or not, but especially for believers. And,

forgiving others is wonderful, but forgiving others and reconciling with them if they're not correcting is not wonderful. And so there's that delusion of, well, if I forgive him, everything is going to be okay. And then you're right back at that place where you're that girl again, knocking on someone else's door.

Jason Scott Montoya (1:02:17)
Yeah.

Allison Miller (1:02:40)
It's scary and it is a nightmare, but what made it possible is there are layers of what made it possible. There are childhood experiences that are not, they're adverse experiences. There are dysfunctional families. There are dysfunctional beliefs. There are...

people telling you that you need to do something a certain way and they don't even know what they're talking about. So, you know, it's just very important for us to understand that, yeah, we see the red flags, but because we want so much to have what we want, we want love. We want love.

Jason Scott Montoya (1:03:12)
Yeah.

Yeah.

Yeah, well, and I think about my own experiences with sort of, I've had the experience where I've seen the flags, people have told me the flags, and I just think, well, I can sort of snake, slither through the traps and get the cheese out of the trap and not get caught and snared. And I don't know if that's common or that was just me, but.

I don't know if that's a pride thing, but my pride made me think that I could sort of run through the land, through the minefield, grab the treasure and run back and not get blown up in the middle of it.

Allison Miller (1:04:10)
It's a big part of it. You know, I think as women, we think we can fix someone. Let me think, he's doing that now, but it's going to be different. And when I show him how it's going to be or what the real way is, he'll change. He'll change.

Jason Scott Montoya (1:04:32)
And would you also add to that that the fixing doesn't actually include accountability, which would be required to create any kind of change? Or does the fixing have accountability when you're trying to do it?

Allison Miller (1:04:45)
Yes.

Well, when you're trying to do it yourself, I mean, there has to be accountability on the other person's part or.

Jason Scott Montoya (1:04:55)
Yeah.

Well, I guess maybe to give a concrete example, you might say, well, I just forgive you. You're essentially just letting it go, but you're not actually expecting them. You're not requiring them change. What I'm trying to say is, yeah, maybe it's more of a hope.

Allison Miller (1:05:11)
I think you're hoping them to change, but I think there's nothing put into place, there are no guardrails put into place to help that and create that change. And the person has to be willing to do that.

Jason Scott Montoya (1:05:17)
Yeah.

Yeah, so yeah, because if someone steals something and then you're like, well, we're just, you're not gonna get out, we're gonna let you go away, get away with it, because we just want you to hope, we just hope you'll change. Like it doesn't seem like that person's gonna actually change or just gonna steal again. Whereas if they're wholly held accountable and maybe they go to a trial and so on and so forth, so maybe they have a penalty of some sort.

Allison Miller (1:05:40)
Right.

You know, I guess we, yes, when you think about that and you think about being in court, you see certain people there that have remorse and people that don't. And, yes, and that, right.

Jason Scott Montoya (1:05:53)
Yeah, even in that situation, yeah. Some people double down and some people change. It doesn't automatically mean they're going to, yeah. But it at least gives it an opportunity for them to change. Not everyone will, but at least some people have a chance to. Yeah.

Allison Miller (1:06:01)
Exactly.

Yes.

Yes. And I think some people don't, they're so ashamed of everything that's happened in their life. They don't want anyone to know about it. And so they won't even talk to a counselor or anyone, which takes you back to lack of accountability, lack of putting guardrails in place. Cause I think we do need help. We need help.

Jason Scott Montoya (1:06:21)
Hmm.

Yeah. So yeah, there's a particular passage in the article about vulnerability in terms of we need help that I think is striking for me as a male and as a father versus a mother that I think was interesting and worth bringing up here just about vulnerability. So here's how the passage goes. When the physical vulnerability inherent in becoming a mother gets downplayed across the political spectrum for different reasons.

Perhaps it's no wonder Southern only gradually came to grasp the practical value of some first wave feminist victories. And I think what struck me was the vulnerability of becoming a mother. And I think one as a female, there's vulnerabilities of that. But to have a newborn that you have to take care of all day long, I mean, you can't, it's very difficult.

So if you're a single mother with a newborn, that's like one of the most vulnerable positions of someone in a society, right? And if you're alone, if you're on your own, there's hardly any more vulnerable position than that, right? So what are your thoughts on that? And I think as a male, it's just a good reminder to remember that because it's not necessarily something inherent in me that it may be in a mother. So what are your thoughts?

Allison Miller (1:08:01)
Well.

from the time I was a young girl, I wanted to have a child. And...

when you have that child, that those children become, I mean, they're a part of you and it is your heart to love them and usually to love them and want to care for them and give them what they need.

Jason Scott Montoya (1:08:28)
Yeah.

Allison Miller (1:08:41)
It's very difficult to put your children into someone else's hands. They're being, you know, even like as young children, like let's just say you're the woman who's now single and you have a small child. You're working with the dynamic of the loss of the relationship. You're dealing with if the father's not present.

You're dealing with your own emotions. You're dealing with a sense of loss and grief and trying to rebuild your life. There's...

There's such an element and there's no greater reward, I think, on this earth than having. They're just children are a gift. And so they're ours for a while and they're ours to nurture and shape and form and help guide them in the right way. And we don't always get it right.

but when you...

I think the part, Jason, that we need to understand is that...

And I may not be answering your question here from the perspective that you're looking for. But when you are a mother,

It's kind of like, I'm not an animal, you know, I'm a human, but a mother bear or a mother cat or dog, they will care for their children. They, they, their babies, they will make sure they're fed. They will make sure they have everything they need. And sometimes, you know,

Being vulnerable takes you down a road that perhaps you didn't even know you were taking to make sure that your children are taken care of because you don't have the capacity or education or financial ability to do that.

Jason Scott Montoya (1:11:06)
Yeah. Exactly. Yeah. Yeah. And I think that's where the thing that comes to my mind is, you know, going back to some of the, the beliefs and the way things are thought of, it's done from a position of power. So versus from the position of the vulnerable. And so it just seems backwards in the sense that like, however we structure our belief systems.

Allison Miller (1:11:08)
then.

Jason Scott Montoya (1:11:34)
should be grounded in the vulnerability first and foremost, and then those that are the most powerful would be sort of the final consideration, but not the first. And I think of Jesus sort of coming down to earth as powerful, but coming down onto earth as a human into that vulnerability as a baby, and then ultimately into vulnerability on being subjecting himself to his creation, crucifying him.

he started with the point of vulnerability and then worked outward from there. And I don't know if that resonates or if you relate to that or if that connects to you here.

Allison Miller (1:12:16)
definitely does. Just understanding, you know, how, I mean, God had a wonderful life in heaven. He had this amazing, wonderful experience of everything being wonderful, but because He loved us so much, He came down as a baby in humaneness through Jesus. And

And through that process showed us how dearly loved we are, but not only that, he showed us what it looks like to really love others throughout his life. And he had a father that he went to in everything and his father guided him well. He guided him in truth and he showed him, you know,

how to live on this earth in the midst of all this brokenness.

to reconcile us as humans into relationship and to show us his plan to redeem us from all these things that we experience in life that distort life, who we really are, what the intent was, what the design was. So when you have a baby,

Jason Scott Montoya (1:13:39)
Yeah.

Allison Miller (1:13:54)
You're kind of doing the same thing for your child. You're the parent and how you lead them, how you guide them, what truth you teach them or not is what they're going to believe. How you respond to them, how you validate them.

Jason Scott Montoya (1:13:57)
Yeah.

Allison Miller (1:14:19)
There's so many pieces of that whole part of being a healthy parent and we're not born with it. I mean, I used to say, I mean, I wish somebody had sent me an instruction book, you know, and well, lo and behold, there is one there.

Jason Scott Montoya (1:14:29)
Yeah.

Yeah.

Yeah, yeah.

Yeah, yeah. Well, let's let's talk about maybe handing off some instruction to wrap up this conversation for the next generation of women who are in toxic situations or who know people who are. What would you want to tell them to protect them from it, to not ignore those flags? What would you want to tell the women in the midst of it, how they can navigate it, move forward? And what would you want to tell that those who unknowingly enable it or want to actively support those to get out of it?

What are the things you wish you would have been told that you want to sort of concisely and clearly communicate to them now?

Allison Miller (1:15:23)
Well, I think first of all, anyone who's getting into, for the next generation, who are getting into toxic situations, don't keep it a secret.

Let other people know who are safe and that can help guide you. That can help you see the truth about what is happening in your life and help you dive into maybe some places in your life that might cause you to be attracted to toxic situations.

Jason Scott Montoya (1:16:03)
Yeah.

Allison Miller (1:16:03)
And also I believe with all my heart that your protection in that is knowing who you are, knowing what Christ has done for you. This is just through Christ, the value that he places on your life, what he was willing to give up, which was his own life for us. What...

understanding how deeply loved you are, your true value, your worth, knowing that you do have a unique purpose and design for your life here on earth. It's not just random. And so to really seek that, seek the Lord with all your heart, your soul and your mind. And that's not...

You might think that doesn't sound practical. And it really doesn't sound practical. But from my own experience, as I've done that, I've learned. And also by sharing with others. Because when you share with others,

you begin to understand that you're not alone in this and that other people have experienced this. Women who are in the middle of this.

Jason Scott Montoya (1:17:28)
Yeah.

Allison Miller (1:17:37)
and how they can move forward. It's scary to be in the middle of it, but there are lots of resources out there for you who...

that can help you, whether it's just, first of all, understanding. If you're in a dangerous situation, I would say immediately you have to leave. If your life is threatened, if your physical being is threatened. And when I say leave, I don't mean, you know, you just go say, okay, I'm getting a divorce. I mean...

You have to separate yourself from the danger. And one of the things that I've learned through that is, is that when you remove yourself from the situation, you can see things a lot more clearly than you can when you're in the middle of it. Cause in the middle of it, there's a lot of, there are a lot of lies being told, a lot of emotional things going on, which can totally shut you down. That can make you believe the lie again.

and then you just keep going in the law.

I just, I think it's so important for you to know.

and see yourself through God's eyes. To know how much He loves you. To know that there is a way forward, that there is hope, that there are people out there who care and that want you to come onto the other side of that because there is victory in it. And that is through Christ and it is through people who love you and care about you.

Jason Scott Montoya (1:19:08)
Yeah.

Allison Miller (1:19:35)
And that is the heart of Christ in them. Also for those people who, whether you're a pastor, whether you're a nonprofit organization, whoever you are, and you're unknowingly enabling the behaviors, or if you want to actively support women in that.

I would say all these same things that I've already said, but if you don't know what you're talking about, don't really, don't advise. Be empathetic, listen, and help get someone connected to someone who does know. And...

You know, we through Destined for Glory have worked very hard to, over the last year or more, put together content that is based on helping people heal through this and the experience that...

My partner and co -founder, Gerard McClellan and I have worked together and our experiences, we've both experienced trauma. We've both experienced abusive relationships. We've both been able to understand what it looks like now. We're, you know, I say we're not healed until, you know, we die fully. But, but,

Jason Scott Montoya (1:21:15)
Hehehe.

Allison Miller (1:21:21)
We know the red flags, we know what it looks like, but our heart is to share with you the healing journey that we took and what helped us. And everybody's story and journey is unique, but Christ is the same yesterday, today, and tomorrow. And so we've put this course together that we believe is very powerful.

in helping people to number one, have awareness of trauma and how it affects people. Number two, help you to see the truth, help you to understand God's love for you, help you to understand what true godly communication looks like, what relationships look like, and help you to have victoria over the wounds.

from all the experiences that you've had in your life. And if you want to help support other women in that, help us support other women in that and help them be able to go through our course to help you understand that. It'll give you a greater understanding and...

Jason Scott Montoya (1:22:30)
Yeah.

Yeah.

Allison Miller (1:22:46)
Yeah, so, you know, we're not the end all be all, but we have overcome a lot. And we have done it through Christ and our relationship with him and through the body of Christ and wanting to help other people. So educating ourselves so that we can.