00:00:05.520 Hi, everyone. Welcome back to MilMac Musings. We're sitting here together in our other studio, as I mentioned earlier. But we're going to be talking about spiritual abuse today in the church. And I'm just going to go back to our early fathers in the church.

00:00:32.760 And as you could see in the Bible from letters written by Paul and others, that the church itself was really they were home churches, house churches, and there would be gathering of people that would be fellow-shipping with each other, strengthening them, and you know rebuking them as needed in a good way because you don't want anybody to be lost again. And to put it into context, you have to understand that back then, as Jesus had just died and was resurrected, you know that movement came the way.

00:01:06.900 And as they were going forward with the way, the Jewish people who didn't come to that or who were thinking of coming to that, they would have been ostracized. And that is something that a lot of people really don't get today. They don't get that if you weren't to be a Jew, growing up in that environment of being Jewish. And again, they had so many different sects of sects of Judaism that it was like today.

00:01:35.280 We have different sects of Christian denominations and so forth. They did the same as back then. But the leaders would tell them that they would be well, not excommunicated, but they would be driven out of the temple and driven out of really the Jewish thought and Judaism itself. And that was huge. So I say all that because coming back to the home churches, that was really important for them to help to strengthen each other.

00:02:04.740 And of course, the Holy Spirit was a huge part of that. But they were followers of Jesus. And as they move forward, that's the example that we should be seeing from today. And we don't see that in a lot of churches. And I shouldn't say a lot of churches, but there are quite a few instances within denominational church sex and as well as other Christian organizations. That the power of leadership has created a lot of abuse.

00:02:34.920 Yeah. Yeah. It's about unfortunately, many, many leaders in the church have ended up being exposed for things that they've used their power and their authority to harm people.

00:02:57.540 And I really believe that a major part of that and why that happens is that because when we look at who we're bringing in, I think as a part of the church, that we look at gifts and how someone is gifted more than looking at their character.

00:03:26.220 And so if we're not looking at their character, then we're not really looking at what their past life experience was and what they've been through. And if they've even done the work to be able to be in a position or a role of leadership with people underneath that are underneath their care.

00:03:51.960 Because if they don't know how to do that, then they are going to make choices that are going to be harmful to the flock. Oh, no question about it. There was a recent case of this big organization with a leader, and it was something that really shocked throughout that organization, who was the actual founder who was being accused of sexual abuse.

00:04:21.540 And again, we have to take a we have to understand innocent until proven guilty. But these allegations are difficult, and they have to be investigated. And that's what they have done. Thankfully, it's a hard choice, but they did the right thing. Yeah But as far as organizations go, again, we're all broken. Yeah And that starts with leadership. I don't care who you are. You go through brokenness.

00:04:49.440 And a lot of them, too, are going through what we've discussed a number of times, adverse childhood experiences. And if they're not going to be healed, which many of them aren't, that are in that situation where power is part of the church is a part of their being, meaning that it's about them. It's not about Christ. And that's something that is devastating for people who are going through trauma. Yeah. It's not about benefiting the people that they have authority over.

00:05:22.140 In many areas, we see this where people are in a role of authority or power. They're using that power to benefit themselves rather than to help the other people that they are really put in charge of. Exactly. So it's a reversal of what they're actually there for. So they're looking inward for what they need instead of the care of the flock, which is again, it's just the way Jesus showed us exactly what to do, and we are to be the bride of Christ.

00:05:49.200 Again, it doesn't mean that we have to be perfect because we can't. We just love God, and we do our very best that we can. We fail, but thankfully, through the grass and through Jesus, we can go boldly into His throne room for the grace and mercy we need you know in any time. That's important. And the leaders can do that too. It's just do that. That's the big question. And personally, from what we receive, many of examples that we have looked at through study, resources, and other areas.

00:06:20.700 It's not there. Yeah It's not there. And the abuse is rampant. And we are here as our ministry to be part of the movement that brings us to the forefront. And because again, pastors and leaders in a particular organization, they don't have it easy, but they have to look at the true source. And it's not them. It's God. It's Jesus. Right. Yeah. It ends up being where they think that they're the ones that has to do everything.

00:06:50.580 And they're really not. And like you said, there's grace and mercy for all of that. But you have to just as we've talked about over and over, you have to stop and look within. And you have to take that time with looking at your past and what has happened. Otherwise, you bring that forward into your life. And they're really blind to it, I think. I mean, I think many of them are blind.

00:07:18.000 They're believing the lies that this makes them a better person. This makes them I don't know. They're just wrapped up in the deceit and the lies of what the enemy has instilled in them because they haven't worked. Exactly. And they're broken. And so the enemy does take advantage of that. Again, we've talked them so many times. You have to bring it to light. So if you keep it suppressed, you're going to be a hindrance to moving the gospel forward.

00:07:47.580 Not that it can't be done because once you recognize that you need to do this, then you know everything's moving forward because Jesus is right there to take you through it. And he doesn't expect them to be perfect either. Nobody is. But when you look at the pastors today that are taking the biblical context I should say biblical scripture out of context for keeping the people in their organization and their church is wrong.

00:08:17.820 You're hearing about how when you're looking at sins, as Paul said, you know so many different sins are out there. But it's one word. It's called the sins. And when you look at the Greek, the proper word for you see sins, and a lot of pastors will say, "What's in your life?" you know Sexual immorality and other issues that aren't good. Well, I mean, we just need the strength of God to help us get through all that.

00:08:41.520 But when you're looking at it from that perspective, you really have to understand that the sin that is the one that drives you away from being truly in the kingdom and staying there is the sin of unbelief of walking away. That's the only sin. I mean, everything else. I mean, he says it, Paul says. It's the sin, and so many people don't get that. I mean, you can hear it.

00:09:10.500 Oh, I think it's Paul when he was talking about how he's talking about the Holy Spirit, and the Holy Spirit comes to us, and you know the Spirit of Christ is in us when we embrace it, when we're born again, truly born again. So again, just to encapsulate what I was saying, it's just a matter of understanding that it's the sheep that need to be flocked, not you.

00:09:35.460 You're not here to engage in anything that's going to help you to promote yourself because you can't do anything because it's all Jesus. Jesus did it all for us, and we're all equal at the cross. Yeah. Out of the love of God for us, Jesus did this. And so it makes me think about when you say the sin of unbelief, you know what is it you're not believing? What is the sin of unbelief?

00:10:04.140 So you know I love the scripture that talks about loving God first of everything with your heart, your mind, your soul, your strength, every part of your being. And when you are working on doing that because you truly understand the depth of love that he had for you and what has been done on your behalf by him. Then everything you do is out of love for him because of that.

00:10:36.300 And I think when you're constantly seeking that and wanting to be in that with him and bring glory to his name. That's where you're going to be finding yourself asking yourself the questions. Is this really what would honor God? Is this really what he wants me to do? Because deep down, I believe people know it's wrong.

00:11:04.620 Oh yeah you know it's almost like scales get covered over their eyes. Exactly. Yeah And they may not really truly have the capacity, but also to understand the truth, the truth, and who's dead with Jesus. You know So again, a lot of times, I think that when you get back into the human element of things, sometimes if we're boastful or prideful or we're afraid to let people we don't know everything, then you're going to create more abuse because you're not going to be a servant of the Lord in the way that He wants us to.

00:11:43.920 Again, it's not perfection. Just let him work for you. He loves you. Just think of the gift of life we have. We're breathing right now. Our hearts are beating. We're talking. We're enjoying what we do. We love to do this. And every day, as we say, we get up, and we're just like, "Hollywood. What a blessing to be able to do this." So that's the true way of looking at what a true leader should be doing.

00:12:10.260 And getting back into the subject at hand, the leadership in so many cases, they're kind of isolated. They're not embracing the people. They're isolated. We know it. You don't. And that's just so bad. And that's where so many things come into play that create the abuse. And the people who are in an environment like that that's abusive, it's just horrible. It's horrible what they're going through. Do you have any other thoughts about what we were talking about in that aspect of it?

00:12:43.200 No, just that you know there are many forms of that type of abuse. It's not just like what happened with this leader that we were talking about that was a founder of this large ministry. That's a big part of it. But there are different ways that abuse is brought into people's lives through the power and authority because I'm concerned about myself instead of you. Right.

00:13:12.480 And I think about it in our families, even as believers. I think it's very important to understand that if we are true believers and if we are born again, and I'm not saying I'm right about everything, but I know I'm kind of like I've been on the other side, and I know that if you are not born again, that you are going to look at everything and think that it's a set of laws and things that you have to follow and to be good enough and to meet the expectation of people and of God.

00:13:54.480 The only person in the whole entire world who could fulfill the law is Jesus. Nobody else could. And all through the Old Testament, that's all he wanted to say. See, you need a Savior. It was always pointing to Jesus. Yeah And so to be born again is to accept Jesus. And we have to be born from above. You know It says it in John to be born above.

00:14:20.040 So I have an example of some you know an illustration of what abuse really can look like. There's a pastor that I personally don't know about. I don't know of a person who knows him. And he's in leadership. And he has gone through some difficulties when he was younger, through some abusive tendencies of his original father. It wasn't healthy.

00:14:49.440 His mother was abused and other things. However, he's in church leadership. And of course, he loves the Lord, but just doesn't know how to approach this particular dynamic of his life. So he's afraid this is my perspective. He's afraid to let others really around him know about what's happening within his life. And his wife was sexually abused when she was younger too.

00:15:16.200 And together now as they have been moving forward because she wants to get help and she's been doing a heavy lifting and she's working hard to keep the relationship together. People sometimes have a tendency to say, "It's you, not me." And they're not willing to look within it. So this particular family situation is not good. And secondly, it doesn't help the church itself.

00:15:42.120 Because if you're hiding your family life from others that really could help you and you're afraid so as a leadership team, if you're afraid of what other people think of you, what good does that do to the sheep? The flock is just devastated. It makes me ask the question, you know what are you afraid of? Why are you afraid of that? Because the transparency that we're taught through Christ says, "you know Come into me.

00:16:10.620 You know Work it out with me and we'll get through this." So why are you afraid because you might have to temporarily step down? Mm-hmm. Well, that might be the very best thing for everyone involved for you to have to do that. So you know I think it's great, and it's a great example, but I think it's great that his wife is ready to step forward and start doing some work.

00:16:40.200 And so it's probably going to come out and be propelling both of them to start doing some work to really get it done. I mean, they don't have to announce it to everyone. Right. But they do have to be vulnerable. And in my opinion, that's a place where they can show leadership by being vulnerable, by saying, "I don't have it all together.

00:17:08.460 I need help." And anybody who's not supportive in that situation, you really have to check yourself deeply to see if you have the empathy or the understanding of what the other person's going through because that's what we're here for. We're here as interpersonal relationships to help, and Jesus is helping each one of us working through the other person. And so there is a suspect there as to where their heart is.

00:17:33.900 You know And so with church abuse, it's a traumatic subject, and it's something that's very prevalent today. And so our goal is to bring this to as many people in churches and leadership teams out there as possible to really start to look inward yeah in a good way because God loves you. Yeah He loves you totally. I mean, you're the pearl. And each one of us is a pearl.

00:18:02.220 And he said, "We're worth it." And he showed it to us and came down to do it. So I believe that as the leadership team of any organization, and particularly in a Christian organization, they really have to leave their own inward thoughts and feelings that are how can I say it that are going to hinder the progress. They have to check it out the door. They have to get help. They have to be vulnerable. Nobody's going to think less of you. In fact, people are going to think more of you. More.

00:18:32.340 Absolutely. By doing it. Yeah. I was thinking of another example that we've talked about before, and it's a little bit different. But when I think about the responsibility and the level of responsibility that comes with leading, you know I think we have a very big responsibility to, in our congregations, make sure that the people that are in contact with our children are vetted.

00:19:04.860 I mean, and I mean, really vetted. And I don't know. I don't mean just a background check because some of that may never have even appeared on a background check. But this example is from the story of this young woman who is now in her 30s or 40s. And when she was a young girl, she loved church. And she was so excited about going to church and learning about Jesus.

00:19:34.800 And just, I mean, being a part of the class in Sunday school. And I mean, she was young. And I'm probably seven, eight years old. And she was running into church one day and running toward her Sunday school class, and someone just scooped her right up and pulled her aside and all her pretty little neat dress and socks and shoes and everything.

00:20:05.520 She had even put her grandmother's lipstick on on the way to church. Everything was in disarray when she was found. And this person who was a leader in the congregation acted upon her in a way of sexual violence and abuse. And it totally rocked this young girl's life.

00:20:33.420 And she ended up you know as a young adult getting involved in addiction. And that was her coping. So I'm just saying as an example, I mean, yes, we have like the example that you're talking about of the people where it's adult women and men that are being perpetrated upon. You know We've seen it many times where young boys are being perpetrated upon.

00:21:04.140 And now you know we have young girls that are also and I think we just have such a level of responsibility of understanding really how to make sure that we're caring for people in a healthy way. Absolutely. And again, we've mentioned this before. You have to be that active listener. Yeah So if somebody comes up to you, a little child and comes up to somebody who may or may not be in church leadership, they have to listen.

00:21:32.460 They can't be looking at the pastor as you know the person who's above reproach. You can't do that because we're all equal at the foot of the cross. And as these people take it upon themselves to feel that they are invincible, to feel that their status is above the status of the people that they perpetrate, that's wrong. That's pure evil. It's evil. And that's just not the way the Lord's church is supposed to act.

00:22:01.560 And we're supposed to be there to be nurturing. In every relationship that's healthy, you're supposed to be there nurturing, caring, being supportive. And that includes the church. And the church, again, is not the building. It's not the denomination. It is the body of Christ. And we're all there together. If you want to go in fellowship to meet in a building, that is wonderful. You could be going to you can be doing ministry.

00:22:30.420 You can be doing counseling. You can be going to one of the wonderful organizations that helps people who are at a disadvantage. Any number of things. That's the church. Right. You can be going to lunch with a friend and talking with them about this, and that is part of the church. It's not about going to the building. It's not about you have to be there you know every time the doors are open. It is about being the open door.

00:23:01.440 Exactly. And having that relationship to such a level and degree that you are that door. You are the hands and feet and helping to meet people. Right. Exactly. That's exactly what it is. And a lot of times you have the leadership in another area of spiritual abuse is that they make you feel guilty if you're not there doing this.

00:23:29.880 And they make you feel that you have to be in the congregation. You have to be doing things. You have to be volunteering. You have to be doing this and this. That's not relationship. That's relationship with the pastor. It's not relationship with God. Yeah So it's looking to Jesus, the author and finisher of our faith. And as we're going to hopefully bring this to the awareness of people, is that the spiritual abuse is also about keeping the person confused in the ways of the Lord.

00:24:01.560 And they may not be fully understanding it, but they'll be perpetrating on the people that there are shepherding, sin, other areas, legalism, and all of these thought processes, which is not Jesus. You know So it's a very serious thing out there. It is. It really is. You know We could spend years on this subject. And it's been going on for years and years ever since the beginning. It has. It has.

00:24:27.540 And again, that's the enemy to come in and to try to distort the view of the true, living, beautiful garden. So it's a very traumatic experience for people who do go through it, and they need to have people come alongside them because they're hurting. And when you're hurting, you know they're being hurt by hurt people. But we need to understand and be aware. Trauma awareness is a key word or key phrase to be understanding of the people around you.

00:24:58.080 Again, it doesn't have to be right in the church. It's in any area of life. You know So it's a difficult subject, but it has to be approached. And we really have to talk this. And we're going to do a lot more on that. We're going to bring in statistics and many other resources. Let me just say many other reasons. Many other resources for this because we really have to bring this to the forefront. Yeah I think it's important.

00:25:22.320 It's very prevalent, and we need to address it, and we need to understand that you know when things get distorted, it's not necessarily that you can see how wrong it is. It's so close to the truth, but it's not the truth. Exactly. That's what it is. The enemy has this way of looking like the angel of light. His darkness and throwing through his darkness.

00:25:49.980 And we have that in the church, too, because it's not the true way of God. And even in Revelation, you could see that in the churches, there were issues at that time, and it hasn't changed. I think it's just gotten worse. And we as people have to understand that we are the hands and feet of Christ, and we are here to help each other. Yeah Pretty much so. We are. Any other thoughts on this subject? Yeah. Okay.

00:26:16.860 Well, again, this is a big subject, a huge subject that we will be over the next you know a lot of time will be spent on it. So we just thank you for listening, and we just thank you for your patience as we talk through some of these issues. And sometimes it may be something that can hit somebody's heart. And we just want you to know that we're here for you. And our goal is to bring truth to the forefront from Jesus through us. And we just thank you again for joining.

00:26:46.380 Yeah. Thank you so much. And also, just so you know, in January, we're going to be starting a course for survivors of trauma. And we would love for you to learn more about that through our website, destinforglorymen.org. And also in March, you know you may be somebody who is a friend to someone who's going through something very difficult.

00:27:15.960 You may be a counselor who doesn't bring the faith element in or the understanding of all the pieces that really go with it. It doesn't mean that you're not helping people. We can add some value to what you're doing. And also, you may be ministry leaders. You may be a pastor. You may be an independent recovery ministry leader.

00:27:42.720 Anyone out there like that who you're just overwhelmed with how to help people. You can't meet the need. There's so many. So we're going to be offering a class for that starting in March. And we're very excited about that and look forward to being able to bring that forward, to bring healing for living wholeheartedly and for helping people understand how to meet people where they are.

00:28:11.400 Exactly. That's an excellent way to put it. And we're really excited. Yeah, we are. We really are. Yeah. So if you have any questions, I mean, if there is some form of spiritual abuse in the church that you've experienced and you would like for us to address it more specifically, we would love to do that with you and through our podcast. So our email address is Mill This email address is being protected from spambots. You need JavaScript enabled to view it..

00:28:40.800 Well, thank you. Yeah. Thank you so much. Have a great week too. God bless you.