00:00:10.440 Hello, everyone, and welcome to the MilMac Musings Podcast by Destined for Glory, where we reveal the intersection between God and science for living wholeheartedly. Hi, everyone. Welcome back to MILMAC Musings.

00:00:27.180 We're here today, and Allison and I are going to continue with our conversation as of the last two episodes. And we're going to be talking about forgiveness. It's not reconciliation, or we don't always have to bring that into it because we can't. As people, we have to really understand, as we mentioned numerous times, that we each have to take care of ourselves within the process. And if we did something wrong, we have to own it.

00:00:56.220 However, some people don't do it, then Jesus wants you not to be in that relationship because that's not the way the Lord works through people. Yeah. If it's not a safe place for you to be, and by safe, you can mean physical threats, emotional threats, verbal threats. All of that is included in not feeling safe when someone's not loving you well.

00:01:26.820 Exactly. And I've talked before, I'm assuming you've had the same feeling. When you're in that relationship and you're dealing with these issues, the anxiety is so high. Oh, yeah. And again, we've talked about how that really just doesn't help your health. So when you're dealing with the anxiety, that's just not God. God is looking for love and interpersonal relationships that really work and thrive. And in order to thrive, again, it's not perfection.

00:01:56.880 It's looking at the other person is through the love that you know Jesus is working through us because each of us are His creation, and each of us are His child. So I think it's important to remember that as you're moving forward. We're talking about the reconciliation part of it. Is there any thoughts that you have on that? Well, I think it you know can involve any type of relationship. It can involve a marital relationship. It can involve a friendship.

00:02:26.460 It can involve an employee-employer relationship. I mean, there's just all kinds of interpersonal relationships that we have. And if someone is not owning their part of what the conflict is in the relationship, and it is progressed to the level of, you know, either verbal, emotional or physical abuse, then that anxiety is probably telling you.

00:02:57.120 Right. You know, it's a message. It's a warning. It's a, hey, something's off. Something's not right. You don't need to be in this. Or, you know, you need to address what's going on and find out if it's you or if it's them. So I think you know so many times we hear through well-meaning people that you know the best thing for you to do is stay.

00:03:26.040 You know Once you forgive and forget. You know Love will cover everything. Just keep loving them and they'll be or just look the other way. And that's just not No, it's not going to work. That's not going to work. Not at all. So in those situations, when you do go through the process that there is an order and there is a process for helping us work through that.

00:03:57.120 If you go through that process and it's not working out the way that it's designed to, or only one party is a member or is engaged in doing the work and acknowledging their part and their responsibility in it. And we're not really talking about a one-off situation because we can all, you know because of our nature, we can say and do things that really could be wronging the other person.

00:04:28.620 But when you have it in a light if you step back knowing something happened and then come together and apologize and talk it out. That's important. We're talking about abusive relationships here that really are so unhealthy, first of all. But the reason we really want to just bring us about over and over again is the safety aspect of both our heart and physical environment. Yeah And sometimes when you're in a particular thing with a family, you have children and everything else.

00:05:01.260 And with the children, you know that's a whole other area. You have to protect them. But you know the abuse can be directed to both parties. So you really have to take a long, hard look. Yeah Not a long hard look. No, not too long because you may end up you know A statistic. You know And that's sad to say, but it happens quite frequently. And our goal here is to inform the body of Christ to make sure that there's a great understanding about what Jesus wants in their lives, for their lives.

00:05:36.240 And the reconciliation aspect can be tricky. We sometimes feel that, well, that's from my perspective. I've spoken about it, that when you are working with yourself and with a trusted friend or a trusted advisor or counselor, it's really helpful for you to do that. But if you come back into the relationship and that other person is still the way they are and not owning it, and they're continuing with that behavior, that's a telltale sign that they're not owning it, and that's it.

00:06:10.500 You have to walk away. And we're not advocating divorce here. What we are advocating is safety for the people involved. So separation could be something that both parties can work out and where the perpetrator can't get help. And again, everybody is creation of God. And he wants that person or she to get the help. But again, if they're not listening and they're not taking under advisement of people who really are helpful in that area and who understand it, then it's not a good, healthy environment.

00:06:44.760 Right. And I think a lot of times that people don't want to get the help is they're afraid for people to really know what's going on in their life or how the behaviors are. But the reality of that is, is that when we step out and we do get the help, then we're met there and there's just such an opportunity to really heal through it.

00:07:11.340 But if you don't own what you've done and you don't, like you said, you know if one person wants counseling and the other person doesn't and refuses and said it's not them or you know all of that, then yeah, separation is a great option.

00:07:31.500 Get yourself into an area or a location where you're safe, where you feel that you can at least get yourself together emotionally and get your thoughts together, and then have a conversation about the possibility of working through things, but if they still don't want to do that. That's a great point. I was just thinking what took me back to Dr.

00:07:58.800 Tim Mackie's message there was that when you are in the process of us being in an unsafe environment, first and foremost is not forgiveness. It's to get out to safety. And I thought that was brilliant in the way he mentioned that, and we don't hear that very much in the church. And that is frustrating from my perspective. I know we've talked about it. We're both frustrated by that lack of really clarity from the church.

00:08:26.760 And we really need to develop a wonderful fellowship community community with a safe environment for people. So this is the trauma awareness that needs to be taken to the church through and through. So I just feel that as we move forward with the particular topic we're talking about, do you have anything else you'd like to add with that? Or do you want to talk about the ability to have the separation and what may happen after that, or?

00:09:00.420 Yeah. Just go ahead and go into that. I mean, because we're focusing on forgiveness doesn't mean reconciliation always. And so there are opportunities for reconciliation. There are times when we do have it. Sure, yeah. So yeah, if we separate, we're in an unsafe environment, we separate, we're working toward. Well, you're working toward yourself to be healed. And each party should be doing that.

00:09:28.620 So when you do that and you come to the realization that we're all broken, and it's not a secret to God. Right. Exactly. So we have a mask that we build up from a learned environment and we're so afraid to be vulnerable, as we've mentioned many times. And I know I was. I was truly afraid. But when you're getting into the abusive aspect of the relationship and then they're afraid of having the truth be told or they'll deny it or be defensive and not to get the help.

00:09:59.040 That's what is scary about a relationship that can go wrong in a very bad way. And we don't want that to happen. We want people to be in safety. And we also have the other thing too is you have to understand the family law aspect of it. And you often have to understand the safety aspect. And sometimes you have to go to a place where the other party does not know where you are. That's correct. Because that's very important because if they're physically abusing you, or even any other abuse that's a continual basis, you're under complex trauma.

00:10:31.860 And when you're in complex trauma, when you're dealing with it, it's frightening. Yeah So I just think that as we talk about and move forward, I think we should really delve a little bit deeper into that. Yeah. I think too, you know when you're in that, if you've separated and you've gone to that safe place and they don't know where you are, I mean, there's a reason why they don't know where you are. So there's no phone calls. You don't have to accept their phone calls.

00:10:59.400 You don't have to have conversations with them during that time for a time because you are really working, like you said, on healing your own heart. You have to get out of the confusion. So when you're with trusted people, trusted advisors, trusted counselors, that's where you can do that. So that's important to follow through with that. And we're going to mention a book here too. It's divorce and remarriage in the church.

00:11:30.420 We have it right here. We're not advocating divorce, but what we are saying that, as we've talked about before from a biblical perspective, God does not want us in an unsafe environment, and they broke the vows, the vows of the marriage. So as you have for better or for worse, and all these other things that are added into it, the other ones that have broken the bowel inner marriage, whether it's been verbal abuse, sexual abuse, or any other type of abuse, that is something that needs to be discussed.

00:12:09.480 And it needs to be a point that is either the person who is perpetrated on has the right to walk away from that. And that's not an easy decision. No, it's not. You know, there might be children involved. And you just want to get away from the other person who's doing that, it's control.

00:12:34.440 You have to get away from that so you can really focus two things on looking for the inner healing from Jesus, and the counsel has taken you to the point of self-worth, your self-esteem is where it should be, and you're getting into a place of safety for your own heart. Right. But like you said, it's very hard to come to that decision. And I mean, it really has to be a thought-through thing for you and a thing that you have made your mind up that you're going to do, and then do it.

00:13:03.660 Right. Exactly. And that's where the family law aspect comes into it. And again, you don't go there. You don't go there with the intention in one second to do it. What you're doing is just getting all the avenues open to help with your decision in a godly way. Yeah, and safety too. I mean, there are safe homes for people to go to and they give them help in how to prepare to even go to them. Right. Yeah. And that's important because, again, when I was going through what I was going through, it was just the confusion and just not knowing where to reach out.

00:13:37.560 And that was so, so it's an anxiety on top of anxiety. And I know if I had stayed within that relationship, there could have been ramifications for my heart and other ill effects for me for my body. And you have all the different emotions that are going on. And I think a place of safety and we'll have resources for that. And I think that it's important for that person to recognize a twofold parallel path to do that.

00:14:08.520 So why don't you come into safety, working on yourself, and then you understand the family law aspect of it. And then if it does reach the point where that other person is not working on themselves, then you have to make that decision. That's my take on it. Yeah. And I think you need to if you do have children, I mean, you're in this situation and if you do have children, then the consideration too is do you want the behaviors that are being showed towards you carried through to the next generation because it's going to teach them how to do the same thing.

00:14:45.120 So it's really crucial that that other person, the perpetrator, really work on themselves and make a decision. You make a decision as the one that is the survivor of abuse that you you don't want that for your children. You don't want that then. And that's part of stewarding and caring for your family. Right.

00:15:13.980 It's important because we're all here for God's family design. Each of us in a perfect relationship or relationship that has the foundation of Christ is that we're here to nurture the children. So when we get out of that, that's dysfunction. And when you're in that dysfunction, then there's so many other avenues that the enemy comes in, it's evilness, and it just destroys your life and relationships. So these are things that are really important to talk about. Yeah.

00:15:42.840 And I mean, you know we have so many blended families now, too. And I mean, they may be in abusive situations as well. But there are also children involved in those relationships. And maybe they're older, maybe they're gone from home, but maybe they're grandchildren even. You know A third generation has come along. So the same application is there for them too.

00:16:11.280 You don't want those generations to be exposed to that. There's a point, and we've both hit it, and we've talked about it, where we just say it stops here. And it's not an easy decision, but you know it's the right decision because from this point forward, by working on yourself and working with Christ working through you and bringing it to Him in counseling, and really coming into the environment of a safe group, safe people in your life.

00:16:40.980 And that just really stops that right there in its track. And then moving forward, the generational aspect moving forward is a whole different life. Absolutely. So that's a great thing for that to happen. Yeah. It can be very different when you make the right decisions for yourself, safety, and health. The resources are out there and we'll have them up in the site. Yeah But it's important to really realize that you yourself can get healed.

00:17:13.380 You can have the right view of God, true and loving God. And then as David points out in the book, Divorce and Remarriage in the Church, and this is a biblical scholar, you know and this isn't something that is you know somebody who wrote a book, taken verses out of the Bible. This is well researched from a biblical perspective. And when you look at it from what he wrote, it's again in the context of Jesus' time.

00:17:43.740 So when he was talking about, he was talking to the Pharisees because the Pharisees were just, it was almost like a quick marriage, quick divorce, almost for any reason. And then for what happens at that point in that context, back then, the women were helpless. Yeah And so they would really just be cast out. So yeah, so that's what Jesus was talking about. He wasn't talking about you have to stay in it.

00:18:09.480 The only way he can do it is I think it was just a word he used. I keep thinking of sexual immorality, but it's Adultery. Adultery, yes, thank you. And that's what it was. And people to this day still think that's what it's all about. And how sad that is. Yeah And I think if really, I'm just thinking if something came to my mind, if people really understood this and how the perpetrator can do it and there can be a separation, and then if it's not a divorce, I think more people would be coming into the relationship knowing that they have to make it, not so much have to want to make it work.

00:18:49.500 So they have to go through that. You know That's just my take on it. Yeah, I agree. I too think you know I love David's book, and it really helped me a lot in my life. I know it helped you in your life. We've shared it with other people, and it's been very beneficial for them. But I think one thing that is so important is there are so many people that are misguided and will tell you, well, it doesn't matter if you're in an abusive relationship or not, you can't leave.

00:19:23.700 You can't get a divorce. And the Bible doesn't say that. And you know it is shown, and we do understand through reading of the whole canon of the Bible that Jesus does not want you there in a relationship like that if the perpetrator is not going to do something to change.

00:19:50.100 As interpersonal relationships, which we're all getting made for, as we talked about in a previous podcast, we're wired differently for our strengths and weaknesses to help each other because we don't all have it together. Yeah So when you look at it from that perspective, and you look at it, David's book, again, not advocating divorce, but the option is there for safety. So again, safety is so important.

00:20:18.840 And most people, I'm going to say that's a generality that's pretty broad, but a lot of people don't know it. And again, as we've heard and we know, the church does not advocate this or just talk about it. I'll tell you, I remember being in a situation where I was in an unsafe environment, and I separated from it. And I was at church, and I was listening to the preacher, and I really loved him. He preached from the Word.

00:20:46.140 He was a wonderful conveyor of the message of Jesus. As he was sitting there talking, I began to feel like I was in the wrong about because he was talking about divorce. And it made me feel like I was wrong. And my place was to go back. And so I really had to sit back and go, "Wait a minute. This is different. This is not I didn't just have a little mini conflict with somebody.

00:21:15.480 This is different." And thankfully, you know I did get the truth and did understand and did not go back. But people do it every day. And that must grieve God's heart terribly because we're all here to support each other and to love each other and to get through the difficult times. We all have difficult times with relationships, but it takes two. And that's the key statement throughout.

00:21:42.900 It takes two to work it out. You know My heart is for the church to be aware of all of this. Absolutely. And for us, I mean, I speak for both of us. I mean, we really that's why we've got this ministry. We want you to understand you're not talking to just a married couple and counseling them through conflict. You're talking to people that are being mistreated and crimes are happening again. That's a great point.

00:22:10.020 You know We always seem to let that go within this context, but it's a crime. These are crimes that are perpetrated by the perpetrator on the person who's receiving it perpetrate, I think it was. But it's wrong. And you can't, as a human being, force your will or force anything on another person. No. There are limits and boundaries, and God has shown them in the Bible. God has limits. And He's shown how we can do it too in a godly way.

00:22:40.200 Yeah It's very important. Extremely important for that to take place. Yeah. So I mean, it may be that you don't reconcile. It may be that it ends up where it doesn't work out and you have been you've prepared yourself during your healing time for what you need to do for whatever your next steps are. Right. And I really, truly believe that's very important to get that message out there. And again, you're not just running away after, like you said, the first conflict. It's something where if it's a safety issue, if you're continually in that complex trauma, you have to just get away.

00:23:13.740 And then once you get to the safety part of it, then you know we're talking about family law, as we mentioned before. And then we're talking about good counseling, good biblical counseling, good Christian counseling. So it's important to have those in place, but you have to get to safety first. That's all it is. And the only way that you're going to really be able to, and this is what Jesus calls us to, is renew our mind. I mean, our mind has been filled with distorted ways of love and not understanding really what it really looks like.

00:23:44.400 Or maybe you do know what it looks like, but you're not getting it, and now you've been conditioned to think that you deserve something else. So the only way that you're really going to be free in your mind, in your heart, because the confusion will be gone when you separate yourself from it, is to start the renewal of your mind and really in the truth of that. And it gets back to biblical age science. It's neuroplasticity. Yeah Renewing your mind is in the Bible.

00:24:14.520 I think it's almost 12:2. Yep And it's a very important thing. And when you do that, then the neuron pathways change. You develop new neurons, neuron pathways that give you the truth. Yeah So it takes you out of the lies and deceit and the emotions you're going through that are contrary to the way God sees us. And when you get into that and you renew your mind and go through that thought process, this is where the Bible and science intersects. Yep It really does. So it's amazing.

00:24:44.520 And there are people that do end up reconciling. Right. Oh, yeah. I mean, our heart is for people to be able to reconcile the relationship. That is first and foremost. But it doesn't go beyond safety. Safety first. Absolutely. Safety first. And then once you go through that process, then you start and begin working more on forgiveness, like the finishing work of forgiveness. Because you start forgiving first, then you're not able to see clearly.

00:25:15.960 I think you got to be safe. You do, you do. And then even if you do have to take that road of separation and then divorce, there will be emotions with that too. But you have to understand from a biblical and a godly perspective that you're making the right decision because for you and your family, you need to be healed, whole, and really healthy. And you won't be that way in a relationship that the other person is not willing to do that. Absolutely. Yeah.

00:25:45.660 Anything else like that? No, I think that do you have anything else? No, I think it's very good. I just want to mention it's David Instone Brewer. I'm sorry. I always call him David. David Instone, Brewer. Yep. And again, this is from a biblical scholarly perspective, which is important for us in our ministry because we want to get to the true word of what it means. And we also want to get the we reap the benefits from people who this is their life.

00:26:15.540 They do the biblical scholarship. But what they want to do is bring it to us so we can really be informed in a true way. And you know we can't go out to do what the biblical scholars do each and every day. There's so many days, so many variations of what they study. But it's important to bring them into the picture. Yeah. We are just so passionate about this because we are victors from this. And we're not saying our life is perfect.

00:26:47.520 He's always working in us, which is wonderful. But we just want you to know what we've learned. Right. We walked through it. And we could only have done it with Jesus. And that's it. And then again, it's just the steps are there. So you take one step, but he's always with you. He's always with you as you walk through it. 100%. Yeah. Thanks so much. Thank you. Have a great week too.

00:27:15.060 Yeah. Thank you for joining us today. If you have questions for us, please email us at This email address is being protected from spambots. You need JavaScript enabled to view it.. We look forward to hearing from you. Have a blessed day.